UCSF Center For Reproductive Health

I had an excellent experience working with Dr. Cedars, and her nurse Jill Ford at UCSF, with the exception of a few minor glitches (billing department related). From start to finish I found the staff, the nurses and the doctors to be super professional and very respectful. I felt truly cared for. I have undergone IVF previously in my 20’s as a donor, about 12 years ago. That was in Tampa, Florida and it was an awful experience. What I experienced at UCSF was a very different, holistic and respectful approach to the whole process. I feel blessed to be living so close to this facility.
This time around, I underwent IVF for a freeze cycle. I’m 37 and came out of a really long relationship not too long ago. I want kids one day and feel lucky to live in a time when I can freeze my fertility! I knew I wanted to do this a year before I actually came in for my first appointment. At the appointment, I told them that I was absolutely ready to begin right away, and they got me started less than a month later. I was able to take out a loan from Arc Fertility, which was approved in less than 24 hours. If you choose UCSF, they can provide more information on this. Before choosing Dr. Cedars and UCSF, I did a lot of research and studied every clinic in the bay area and all the doctors available, and after considering factors such as commute, etc, I settled on UCSF, and more specifically, Dr. Cedars. I am very happy with this well researched decision! My experience has been excellent.
Everything was communicated very clearly at every step along the way both by Dr. Cedars, by Jill and their assistant Ruthie. I got a lot of calls to clarify what was needed, where I was, and to simply check in on me. I really appreciated this. I felt my hand was held throughout, and that’s what you need when you are going through something like this on your own. Dr. Cedars is really courteous and kind, and so is her staff. During off hours, I panicked mildly on the day I was starting my injections (Christmas day!). However, many thanks to the doctor who is available for calls after hours, all my questions were answered and it all turned out alright.
My medications were monitored very closely and so were all my levels. This is not something I experienced 12 years ago. In the end, the retrieval yielded 19 ocytes of which 15 were frozen for future use. One of the best and most liberating decisions I have made in recent years. I think all women in their mid 30’s who don’t have children yet but want them should consider this option. We live in a time where we are lucky to have it.
The glitches: So I see a lot of negative reviews on here and many are related to billing. Yes, I believe that is something they are working to fix! IF you ignore the billing, the medical practice is excellent. In my case, Arc Fertility’s loan came through on time, however it was not showing up in their system. As a result, I was asked to pay up front whenever I would show up for my appointments. Each time I would have to ask the staff to talk to billing. It was always cleared up but it was mildly stressful. The most stressful one being the day before my retrieval, when I was trying to minimize my stress and remain calm in preparation for the surgery. I got a call from a nurse Yolanda who frantically told me that the surgery would not be performed because the payment had not come through. Of course, I was annoyed to get a call like this just 12 hours before. In any case, a few emails fixed the problem. But the problem was unnecessary. I believe they are working hard on fixing this, so if you can look over the billing issues, I highly recommend Dr. Cedars at UCSF for your treatment.

we cannot express enough how disappointed we were with our experiences with ucsf ivf. we were recommended to try dr fujimoto by another dr and in the beginning, he seemed ok. we had the eggs retrieved and were able to have 9 healthy embryos frozen… we were pretty encouraged that we would get pregnant. so, we had the first transfer (one embryo), there were no issues, dr cedars was awesome and were happy to find out that it took! sadly, there was an extra chromosome in the embryo and after 7 weeks, we lost it. no big deal… these things happen… no ones fault… so we schedule the next transfer and dr rosen is scheduled to do the transfer… being the director of this reproductive program, you would think he would be able to to a simple transfer. well, it was far from simple for him… he tried and tried and tried, but could not get the embryo in a position to transfer. all this time, my wife is in pain from her very full blatter… so he says he can’t do it and excuses himself and we have to wait for another dr to attempt the transfer. fujimoto comes in about 30 minutes later… my wife, uncomfortable because she had to have a full blatter was in tears! Fujimoto comes in and in a matter of a few moments, made the transfer. so why can fujimoto do it with no problem and rosen, the dept head, have such a difficult time? it made me think that he doesn’t do this very often and chose this day to do it to practice so he can still be certified to do transfers, or something… who knows, but needles to say, the embryo didn’t take. at this point we shoulda run to another reproductive group. but, hey, its ucsf, right??? they are the best so let’s stick with them… bad decision… after rosen’s fumble, fujimoto agreed to do the rest of the transfers… so we stuck with them… so had another transfer, it doesn’t take… we had another transfer (2 embryos), and again, it doesn’t take. after this last transfer, we meet with fujimoto as a follow up (as we did on the previous failed transfers) and he proceeds to tell us he thinks the reason for the embryos not taking is because of my sperm… wtf?! what data would tell you that, dr fujimoto? it wasn’t my extra chromosome that made the first transfer eventually fail. in our mind, he was trying to take the blame off of ucsf and put it on us! maybe the continued failures of these transfers were affecting their success numbers so he didn’t wanted usto come back… who knows… and during our prior meetings with him, his guidance was wishy washy at best… always giving us options, which was good, but never really guiding us with what he thought was the best option… just nebulous comments… so after this complete failure and the irresponsible «hey lets put the blame on his sperm» comment, we decided to go to another dr. fast forward to now, and we are VERY happy… with twins! if you are curious who we used, check out Dr Aimee in San Ramon… she only needed one attempt and BOOM, pregnant with twins… HIGHLY recommend Dr Aimee! she suggested new things ucsf didn’t (they did the same thing over and over… it was a failure much more often than a success) and all her recommendations were spot on! oh, like many of the other comments, we also has billing issues… so stay away for ucsf… try Dr Aimee!

I initially was referred by my gynecologist to go to Pacific Fertility Center, but after reading their Unilocal reviews, there were a few that said they recommended UCSF Fertility instead. I knew that UCSF has a great reputation and my insurance is taken there instead of Pacific Fertility. I saw that Dr. Mitchell Rosen had many great reviews and after calling into their practice, Dr. Rosen was who they recommended. I liked going to their new facility at Mission Bay as it is close to home and has a good atmosphere. I tried IUI twice there, but no success. He recommended IVF and glad I didn’t waste more time as it worked for me on the first try. I ended up having to do a frozen embryo transfer. I thank nurse Cathy Chin-​Yu and Dr. Rosen for all their help and assistance during what seemed like a long process. Cathy answers all your emails on a timely basis and is always so positive. I didn’t realize how much work it takes to do all the self injections, doctor visits, fertility medication, etc, but in the end it was all worth it. Anyone should be confident to be assisted by UCSF Center for Reproductive Health. I am due summer of 2016 with a singleton with the help of Dr. Rosen. Thank you!

I sincerely thank Stephanie Jenniches, Anna Richardson and Liz from the 8^th floor, along with Annie Brunelli, and last but definitely not least Maria from the front desk.
Doctor Cedars is definitely the best: she is a great doctor, a very good listener. She explains everything in a simple way and makes you feel confident.
Plus for her you are a human being not just another case. It’s incredible how an appointment can comfort you and boost your hope up.
Thank you so much doctor Cedars.
I am so grateful to Jill Ford too as she is so caring and supporting.
Doctor Cedars’ team is really the best and I truly recommend this team, the best I have ever had in this long journey.
Update: we are happy to announce our baby boy is on his way thanks to Doctor Cedars and her team.

There is no one better in the field than Dr. Mitch Rosen and his team. Though the odds were against us, he successfully helped our family grow with a beautiful daughter. We are lucky to have her and Dr. Rosen in our lives and will continue on to a new procedure for a second child. Dr. Rosen is cut and dry and will let you know the odds and worth of each procedure. He will not feed you any BS the way these other clinics do. That alone is rare and worth it’s weight in this industry. If you choose to work with him, he is busy, but that is because he is the best. Have patience and move forward with his team at UCSF if you want a child. He and his support team will answer your questions and will give you the most relevant and effective advice in a timely manner. Academia will always provide the expertise, research, and overall best practices over clinics bound by their business constraints, economics, and limited resources. They will typically charge you more for less. Conversely, you will know what you’re getting at UCSF, it’s value, and most importantly its honesty. You will be receiving the best that the University of California has to offer. Dr. Rosen and his staff are second to none.

Upon telling the RE doctor about prior IVF attempt, where we tested embryos and found the # chromosomes weren’t viable, his response was:
«Why didn’t you transfer them?»
I said, «they weren’t compatible with life.»
His response said in a very critical tone, «so you let them DIE instead of giving them a chance in your uterus?» I couldn’t believe my ears.
My response, «Have you ever had a miscarriage? Let me assure you they suck.»
Another 10 minutes ensued of my trying to understand why he would recommend transferring aneuploid embryos. The best summary I could get is: the uterus works in mysterious ways. No science. No data.
Every colleague I speak to about this is as horrified as the medical student was that day in the room. It’s been 6 weeks since that consult. That language was not okay. Contacting their office to have the MD re-​educated.

I can’t say enough about Dr. Mitch Rosen and UCSF’s Center for Reproductive Health. I recently underwent egg cryo, which was a difficult decision for me and complicated bc I have a diminished ovarian reserve. After much research and an initial consultation at a different, well-​known Bay Area hospital where I felt I was treated like a number, I found Dr. Rosen at UCSF. He has a wonderful bedside manner, explained everything I needed to know, answered my exhaustive list of questions, and provided a creative solution to my specific medical issue. This was anything but a cookie-​cutter approach. From my initial consult, to monitoring me over the last few months, to the entire egg-​cryo process end to end, I was treated exceptionally by everyone at UCSF.
Any woman going through this or thinking of going through it knows how stressful this can be – physically and psychologically – and I felt like Dr. Rosen was on my side and rooting for me the entire time. In fact, I felt like we were in this together and that he wanted as good or better of an outcome than I did. I felt like he did the worrying for me.
Additionally, it’s important that women and couples know that the UCSF docs operate as a team. During a cycle, one doctor will monitor you/​conduct ultrasounds, but your primary fertility doctor manages your care and makes decisions about medications/​tests, etc. on a daily basis. The benefit here is that you get a few doctors assessing your unique situation, but your doctor makes decisions for you on a daily basis, and your nurse communicates those messages to you. In my case, Dr. Paolo Renaudo monitored me in the morning. Amazing bedside manner and he took time each day to answer my questions regarding progress. Later in the day, my nurse would call me with results and explain what course of action Dr. Rosen thought was best. It felt personal and was very efficient.
Lastly, I’d like to add that Dr. Rosen managed my expectations since I began seeing him in Dec. 2014. I found this very comforting. I had a better-​than-​expected outcome, but this is still the beginning of the fertility journey for me and I can wholeheartedly say that when I undergo treatment in the coming weeks and months, which I will, I wouldn’t want anyone else overseeing my care and I look forward to partnering with Dr. Rosen.

Update — 6 months after my initial visit, they still haven’t billed me correctly for it. I call them regularly to try to straighten this out, even though I’m not being seen there anymore and won’t go back. Amazing.

Dr. Mitch Rosen was referred to us by a family physician friend. He has training at the top reproductive institutions. He was very professional, direct and educated us on the process. After a few months of trying, we became pregnant and I delivered a healthy boy. The new UCSF facility in Mission Bay is top rate as well.

I came to Dr Rosen after trying unsuccessfully to have our second child on our own. I am in my mid-​40s, had several miscarriages (one in second trimester), and had Asherman’s Syndrome.
Dr. Rosen developed my protocol with careful consideration of all of these factors. He always explained the drivers of the protocol, and thus we learned to trust him early on. My treatment involved a few hysteroscopies, which was important in the success of my overall experience at UCSF. Dr Rosen made all decisions related to my treatment, and we now have a healthy, beautiful newborn.
Other aspects of the care at UCSF were top notch. Nurse Cathy was Stephanie Jenniches were amazing. They are personable, efficient, and were incredibly responsive throughout. I felt that they were empathetic to the lows and shared in the highs of my experience.

Dr. Mitchell Rosen and his nurse Cathy 5 +stars
But unfortunately UCSF billing department represented by Alelia Meliza 0 stars
I paid for some service in November, 2014 that i didn’t use and until now April, 2015 I cannot get my credit back. Alelia doesn’t return calls or emails. I don’t know what to do?

Deciding on an IVF clinic and finding the right RE can be overwhelming as you are relying on their expertise to make your dreams happen of having a family. After doing some research, I personally decided on Dr. Mitchell Rosen. I picked Dr. Rosen because of my history of malignant melanoma and if cancer wanted to show her ugly face once again, I knew I needed to have the right Doctor to battle this fight with me. He is highly respected in his field assisting cancer patients and this is one reason for my decision. But by all means, you do not have to have a history or diagnosis of cancer to be seen with Dr. Rosen!
From my first office visit with Dr. Rosen, I knew I had made the right decision. He reviewed our case and determined right away that IVF was our only option and I was truly appreciative as I didn’t want to mess around with unnecessary options such as IUI or other options if they were not realistic. This is another reason why I think so highly of Dr. Rosen, he’s very upfront with you, what will work, what won’t. Sometimes it’s hard to hear but he’s here to help you get pregnant, keeping it real and optimistic at the same time.
While you are «in cycle» you will meet other attending Doctors who are on service and they will monitor you and do your retrieval/​transfer. I have had wonderful experiences getting to know Dr. Nam Tran and Dr. Paolo Rinaudo. I do want to give them their spotlight as well because I wouldn’t be able to say, that I’m pregnant with twins without their help as well! Yup, that’s right, twins that are due in August!
I have had such a positive experience at UCSF from A-​Z. From being greeted at 7:30am by Maria at the Front Desk, who by the way, always kept you smiling and cheering for you the whole time. To seeing all my providers helping me get to retrieval and transfer, the embryologist (who we never really get to meet except when the procedures are happening) and the nursing staff on the 8^th floor who take care of you before and after your procedures, truly a great team effort to get you through all of this!
We are so grateful for Dr. Rosen’s perfect concoction and everyone at UCSF who has supported us, He truly crafted the right protocol for me and has been in constant communication with me throughout this process, I’m so grateful to have had him by my side this whole time.

Ours has been a very long journey to becoming parents involving almost all the reproductive techniques and Dr. Rosen has been our trusted advocate, partner, and guide the entire way. We are not the typical couple trying to have a child – we are older with some health issues and had been judged and rejected by the commercial fertility clinics. Dr. Rosen and UCSF, on the other hand, did not shy away from our issues. And his respect for us, matter-​of-​fact approach, and empathetic style were a perfect match for us. At this point I am not sure either of us believed we would ever really be able to have a baby but we were happy to have such an encouraging, knowledgeable partner on our side.
We started with IUIs and then moved on to IVF. Nothing worked but Dr. Rosen was always there with options we didn’t even know existed. We eventually decided to use UCSF’s donor egg program and had a good experience with that process as well. After a few failed attempts at IVF Dr. Rosen suggested considering a surrogate. While this might have been a very touchy and difficult topic to bring up he did it in a caring and considerate way. He was very much our partner and understood our pain. And he gave us yet another way to help us achieve our dreams.
With the help of a surrogate and a few attempts we now have our beautiful baby boy. It’s so cliché to say it but he is, in fact, a dream come true. So how do you thank and praise the Doctor who made it happen for you? Do you list a bunch of words to describe him? Caring, kind, compassionate, intelligent, funny, thorough, determined, collaborative, open, honest, direct, creative, this list goes on. Do you write a Unilocal review bestowing his wonderful attributes? Do you name your child after him? (yes, our son’s middle name is Mitchell after Dr. Rosen). Or do you just decide that it’s time for baby number two and give Dr Rosen a call again? Answer: All of the above!

Just an update to my previous review:
After I wrote that, we wanted to get our embryos genetically tested. This was after a retrieval where the remaining embryos were frozen. UCSF agreed (and recommended) testing the remaining embryos. This would obviously require a thaw and refreeze, then potentially thaw again for the transfer. They grew the remaining embryos to blast, which went well, and the day/​weekend they are to test the embryos (Day 5) our doctor called us, on a Friday night, to let us know that the LASER THEY USE TO TEST THE EMBRYOS WAS BROKEN. I did not know whether to laugh or cry. After all that we went through, this felt like a cruel joke. They said there was nothing they could do, they would have to refreeze the embryos until the part for the laser came in. (One would think there would be some sort of protocol to check all critical equipment to avoid this type of circumstance.)
We ended up opting to NOT test our embryos because that would require an additional thaw/​refreeze, which would be a total of 4 thaws for these poor embryos and to avoid any further unnecessary trauma to the embryos. We went forward with another transfer (what could we really do at that point) and of course, it failed.
We refused to do any further treatment at UCSF without some answers or further testing, neither of which UCSF could provide.
So we found another RE (Dr. Zouves in Foster City) and lo and behold, I got pregnant on my first and only transfer there. We may have gotten lucky, but I believe the more thorough testing we went through 1) made a difference and 2) enabled us to have more trust and confidence in our doctor. Not once was Dr. Zouves dismissive of our questions, which is what we constantly faced at UCSF.
Our latest contact with UCSF was receiving a bill for $ 500 for storing our one remaining embryo.

Abominable billing department, even for standard, routine services. Admin staff is unprofessional, rude and incompetent. Nurses are indifferent and don’t return calls.
Doctors can be excellent but they seem to be accepting, if not encouraging, of the surrounding nonsense as a mean to keep patients away.

I started my original treatment in the military and let me tell you this… it was a horrible and depressing experience! It was the same routine for months and no communication! Every appointment felt rushed, like they wanted to get me in and out. Fast forward to UCSF and I have no complaints so far! The staff have always been very friendly and communicative. Dr. Rinaudo looked over my file and came up with a very straightforward plan for my treatment. They keep you informed of what is going on and even give a nice orientation class for the steps in the IUI process. Whether or not I end up being a success story, I cannot complain about the great treatment I’ve received so far.

If you are looking for the absolute best, you need look no further…
Undoubtedly if you are reading this, you are either in the process of fertility treatment, or are considering it. You may be doing your research to try and find the best provider possible, and I would encourage and advise you to do that, as any prudent person should. Knowledge is power, and with this information you can make great decisions. Really all we can do is make the most of what we are given, seek help and assistance from the best people we can find, and look optimistically to the future. The challenge is, if one has not yet gone through the IVF process one’s self, one may not have a context for how to judge which clinic or where is best. My goal is to share my experience in an effort to offer it as a guide to help you in your own decision making.
My doctor at UCSF, Dr. Rosen, is a brilliant reproductive endocrinologist who clearly has a knack for tailoring a plan to custom fit you, the patient. There is no one-​size-​fits-​all recipe for a prudent IVF plan, and a textbook alone cannot provide this type of information. That is why it is imperative that one choose a doctor that is adaptable and cognizant of challenges that you, as the patient, may uniquely present. As it has been said, some people just have «it», and some don’t. Dr. Rosen has that proverbial «it» factor when it comes to reproductive endocrinology. Not only that, but if you are interested in seeking care from a professional that is on the cutting edge, or even driving the future of reproductive endocrinology, which is constantly changing, Dr. Rosen is that person. I’ve been truly impressed with the information I’ve garnered from him in reference to what’s in the pipeline for the future of reproductive endocrinology. When it comes to the latest and greatest in this specialty, no doubt Dr. Rosen is exceedingly knowledgeable.
Probably the greatest benefit of being Dr. Rosen’s patient has been the gift of peace of mind. Prior to seeing Dr. Rosen, I felt like I had to bear the burden of worry. Now, as a patient of Dr. Rosen’s, I finally feel like I’m truly in the best hands. When one is under the best care, a great weight is lifted off one’s shoulders. It has been such a freeing experience to be able to sit back and relax, and dare I say enjoy the process. In addition to being an excellent clinician, he is just generally a nice guy, very reassuring, confident and likeable. If you run into him casually in the hallway, he’ll say hello, and give you a hug. Facing fertility issues can undoubtedly present a hefty burden on one’s psyche, and having a strong ally in your corner, as I have felt with Dr. Rosen, can provide such a welcome sense of relief.
Speaking of allies in your corner, most certainly the person I have spent the most time corresponding with and speaking to is Audra Katz, Dr. Rosen’s nurse. She has been such a force for comfort and reassurance, and is most definitely the reason that this whole experience has been as positive as it has. I can’t say enough wonderful things about her. She is not only a great nurse, but just generally a great person, and it has been my pleasure to spend a little bit of time with her, sharing things about myself, as well as learning things about her, which has added a really nice human aspect to the experience. She has really made me feel like I mattered, and for that I am truly grateful.
Really the whole team at UCSF has been great. I had the opportunity to see Dr. Cakmak on a few occasions, and he is very kind and empathetic. If you are looking for a doctor who is exceedingly gentle and warm, he would be an amazing choice. Additionally I’ve recently seen Stephanie the nurse practitioner that works with Dr. Rosen, and she is amazing, she explains things well, and listens to any questions you may have, and is just so incredibly sweet. UCSF has a wonderful team of doctors, nurses, and staff that serve to give you the best chance at achieving your dreams.
Undoubtedly if you have read this, you are either in the process of fertility treatment, or are considering it. Knowledge is power, and with each bit of information you garner, you are one step closer to getting to your goal. At this phase, things are going exceedingly well for us with UCSF, our results have been amazing, and I could not be more pleased. Best wishes for your own success and happiness, and may all of your dreams come to fruition.
–Michelle

Mitch Rosen is a baby-​making genius :) Ours was a LONG road, that eventually landed us with Dr. Rosen AND a positive pregnancy test!
We battled infertility for 4.5 years. In that time, we went to a ton of doctors in the Bay Area. We started with PAMF for IUI’s, moved on to NOVA for 4 rounds of IVF and 2 donor egg cycles, and finally we transferred all of our embryos to UCSF and started fresh with Dr. Rosen. During our IVF cycles I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I underwent surgery and chemo and kicked cancer to the curb.
Post cancer, I decided to move over to UCSF because Dr. Rosen has successfully gotten all of my friends pregnant and he’s one of the top onco-​fertility specialists in the country.
Mitch was super encouraging and took a look at my case with fresh eyes. He was very scientific and methodical in his approach. We did some diagnostic testing — which came back fine — and moved on to FET prep shortly thereafter.
We had to cancel the first FET because my lining wasn’t cooperating. Rather than rushing into a sub-​optimal setting, Mitch postponed until he got the exact perfect environment for the transfer. While every infertile hates to be delayed — I really appreciate the fact that he didn’t give in to my whining and protestations. He genuinely knows what your body needs to do in order to get a successful outcome.
So, we waited and re-​prepped for the FET. This next time, everything looked good so we transferred and I’m thrilled to say I’m preggers (23 weeks) with a singleton :)
I can’t say enough about Dr. Rosen. He was our lighthouse in the storm. Some have said he has a brash bedside manner. I disagree. He is just trying to get all the facts so that he can give you your ultimate desire.
Even though I’ve graduated from UCSF and Mitch to an OB. Dr. Rosen still emails me to check in and be sure that everything is going smoothly with the pregnancy. That’s a damn fine bed side manner if you ask me!
Run, don’t walk, to get an appt. with Dr. Rosen. You won’t be sorry!

Dr. Heather Huddleston and her nurse Susan Craig are amazing — I can’t say enough about how wonderful both of them are to work with. Thanks to them I have a beautiful baby boy and in addition to Dr. Huddleston being a fertility whiz and getting me pregnant, both she and her nurse were super compassionate and sweet the whole way through my journey, always cheering me on and rooting for my husband and I. I really appreciate the fact that our doctor listened to us and was willing to be our partner, instead of just «telling» us like many other doctors tend to do.
Positive experience the entire time — if you are looking for a fertility clinic do your research — UCSF is a world class non-​profit academic institution — unlike for-​profit fertility clinics they are not incentivized to push you into IVF or other expensive procedures. They just want to get you pregnant safely and will be honest with you about what they think is going to work best.

This review is a late, but I’ve struggled to find the words to thank Dr. Mitchell Rosen. How do you thank someone for giving you the gift of children?
We tried to get pregnant on and off for three years. Unfortunately, our only «natural» pregnancy ended in miscarriage, and we wasted a lot of valuable time with other doctors. There was a lot of «possible» diagnoses, but no one could tell us why we couldn’t get pregnant or keep a pregnancy. It was the eve of my 35^th birthday, and I was getting desperate. We attended the free IVF seminar at UCSF, and I was simply wowed by Dr. Rosen’s compassion and breadth of knowledge.
It was hard to get an appointment (he’s very popular for good reason). At the initial consultation, I told Dr. Rosen that I didn’t want to waste any more time and that I wanted to go straight to IVF. He didn’t want to take such an aggressive approach and recommended that we do a few rounds of Clomid and IUI instead. When I insisted on IVF, he assured me that I would get pregnant but that it would probably take some time. He told me not to worry and to let him do the worrying. I almost broke down in tears in his office.
Well, he was right. I was on my second round of Clomid. We cancelled the IUI because of poor timing, and I still got pregnant… WITH TWINS! They are now six months old and the loves of my life. I KNOW they wouldn’t be here without Dr. Rosen’s help. Thank you!